Today we will have our final fishbowl discussion of Pudd'nhead Wilson. Please try to break away from live blogging at least once to enter the inner circle (the water is just fine!).
Why do you believe that the real Chambers acted so vile and cruel towards his mother Roxy even after he realized that his mother Roxy saved him from a potential life of slavery????
I think that there are many sets of twins, in my research I saw comparisons between Roxy and Tom, Wilson and Judge Driscoll and Pudd'nhead Wilson with himself (Pudd'nhead Wilson v. David Wilson)
JORDAN- Because Pudd'nhead Wilson was the ultimate solver of the problems of Tom and Roxy and ended up ratting them out in the end of the book "Pudd'nhead Wilson"
Jimmy- I read an article that talked about twinning for my Bibliography. I think the author talked about several different possible twins in the book. I think there were subtle clues that people were meant to be each other's twin.
To answer Jimmy's question, both the Percy and Judge Driscoll served as Tom's father figure, which was kind of a double. Tom himself also had another double when he dressed as a woman. I kind of noticed that while reading this book it was full of doubles, especially since Mark Twain was the other name for Sam Clemens.
Erika- i think it was all about the way he was raised. His whole life was shaped around the fact that slaves are sub-human, inferior and objects to be owned. One minute of finding out you could be one yourself is not enough to change a lifetime of abusing and condescending.
Meghan- I disagree. I think Roxy made a choice, and it is possible for her to regret switching the babies because of what it did to Tom and Chambers in the end.
I find it interesting that Dan found research that compared Pudd'nhead Wilson to being a twin with Judge Driscoll, because at the end when Judge died, Wilson acted as if he lost a part of himself. I never really thought of Judge Driscoll and Wilson being subtle twins, just best friends, but I guess they were more attatched to each other than I realized.
Megan, I do not completely agree. I think she Roxy overestimated the perks of being a white slaveowner. She sacraficed her son's moral compass for money, and if I was a parent, I would want my child to have good character more than I would want them to be rich. I think that if she would have known what was to become of her son, she would not have made the same decision.
Another question...What was the purpose of all the little quotes at the beginning of the chapters from Pudd'nhead's calendar? How did they relate to what happened in the chapter?
EMILY- But don't you think that the real Chambers would feel sympathetic towards slaves and the way that they live and the way that the kids are raised and feel like that would have been him if it hadn't been for his mother Roxy's copmpassionate move.
Perhaps I'm just a skeptic (what do I mean, perhaps?), but I think that, like most literary theory, we're reading too much into the book. Although arguably twins are an important theme throughout the book, there are few parallels one can draw between say, Driscoll and Wilson (within reason). Roxy and Tom are both concerned almost purely with power and social status, but I think they're fundamentally different enough (due to their upbringing) that they can't really be considered as "twins".
I think that she uses her son as an asset towards herself, and she doesn't see herself as his mother. In the beginning I think that she did and really wanted to be a motherly figure but as she saw how he is growing up, she starts to fade from him.
Jimmy, I think symbolically there are many other sets of twins. It was interesting, one of my annotated bibliography sources had the opinion that Pudd'nheadd Wilson had dual characters that were twins or a doppleganger in a sense. Examples of this is his isolation for 20 years in the town as well as him being prominent with the town's most respected citizens. Also with his manipulation of power with the fingerprints and friends and his good intentions for saving others, like Luigi and Angelo.
Erika- I think the way Tom was brought up made him selfish and proud. He was unable to accept his true identity, because he was so proud, which led him to lash out at Roxy.
Jordan, I was wondering that too. Why do you think that Twain was going to call the book The Tradegy of Puddn'head Wilson? What was such a tradegy inhis life? What was Twain trying to satirize with that title?
Yeah Declan, I think that the Puddinhead is the way that the townspeople see him and all his little oddities, and the Wilson is the true genius of his mehtods, and how he is ahead of his times.
ZACHF- I think that one can answer that question either way. If one's upbringing consists of slavery as opposed to a rich slaveholder then of course personalities are going to be different. What do you specifically mean ZACHF?
Zach, I definitely think that a person's upbringing ultimately determines their personality. I read this article when we were doing our annotated bibliographies about how blood doesn't make a family, sentimentalism does. I think this applies.
matt- I noticed that Angelo and Luigi were the same as tom and chambers in many ways. They were opposites in the way that Luigi murdered a man but it was to save his brother. Tom nearly murdered his "twin". Tom and Chambers seemed to be a replica of Luigi and Angelo, their actions were the same but for entirely different purposes.
I agree with Tom, maybe we are analyzing topics with the book that shouldn't be analyzed as in depth as we are. Perhaps there are other themes within the book that we aren't looking at, that do have more symbolism and meaning.
Chelsea- your comment helped me understand the irony in Puddn'head representing the twins in the trial. In reality, the friends and family of victims of crime would take the opposite stance. I think that speaks to the depth of Puddn'head Wilson's character.
Matt- Twain focused more on Luigi, rather than Angelo, who was more in the background. Also, Tom was a main character, while we don't know much about Chambers. I think this relates to the power of human impulse, and how the evil impulse can take over a person.
Zach-I think that it does determine your personality. For example: if you have always lived in a family that has a lot of money, you never worry about the cost of things. However, if you grew up not having all the money in the world, you stretch your money as far as it can go to get the most out of what you have. Same thing with race: black people grow up somewhat differently than white people just because of cultural differences. The place where you live also has an impact on this.
i agree 100% with Tom. I think that we tend to read far too much into the small, insignificant details while ignoring the blatant symbolism. Or maybe Twain didn't mean all this "symbolism" to actually be symbolism. maybe he just wanted to write a book.
(I know that we have to read into the book in order to have a class, but really, must we go so much into the small details? I don't feel as if the Twin issue is a huge deal in the novel)
I agree with Jordan I think a person's personatlity is based on their ubringing and the people that they are surrounded by. Tom being in a wealthy lavish upbringing grew up spoiled even though he is part slave.
Do anybody think Chambers would have chosen to continue to be a slave (if he could), when he found out he was really white, because the book said he felt very out of place in white society?
Meghan...I agree with what you said but I think that a lot of the his decisions were made because he never knew what was right and what was wrong except what his somewhat defective moral compass could tell him. He had the ability and opportunity to be good but situations and decisions carried him pretty far from that.
Dan, Roxy felt guilt and Tom did not for his/her actions. They were complete opposites. Tom and Luigi felt no regret for their actions but there actions were for a different purpose and were therefore twins in their actions but opposites in their purpose. ALmost like Tome is Luigi's evil twin....
Kyle, He probably wouldn't have chosen to be a slave again, but he probably would've decided to spend his time with slaves, but not actually be one. If that makes any sense.
Lane- I think that Twain does believe that all people do have good and evil, but additionally, I think he is making a commentary on the fact that sometimes humans cannot comprehend the potential consequences of their actions. I think he portrays most characters as incompetent. One of articles I read dealt with Twain's preference of competence over power. I think Puddn'head Wilson represents the only example of competence in the story.
I agree with Jordan and Nathan. Like Meghan said, a bad man's son can be a good man, and a good man's son can be bad. It all depends on their upbringing. Tom was brought up as a spoiled rich kid, and I think he subconsciously thought he could get away with anything because of that.
I think that Chambers would have had much difficulty trying to assimilate into either society. I doubt he would have chosen to go back into slavery but i also doubt he would ever fully feel comfortable in white society.
KYLE- I believe that although the real Chambers felt out-of-place, no one would choose slavery over the position of a slaveholder because the real Chambers would not have known any better. Is that what you are asking? Would the real Cahmbers switch back to a slave at an older age, or would he have rather started and lead his whole life as a slave?
I think that Twain believes that people obtain both good and evil. For example, at the beginning of the novel Roxy has nothing but good intentions of switching the babies. But as the book continues her intentions change as she becomes greedy and black mails him for his money. So I believe that characters obtain both evil and good influences inside them.
Kyle, if I remember correctly, Tom felt like he was out of place in the society for honestly only a few paragraphs. Then after that it was never mentioned again. I think the initial shock made him feel this way, but then the greed and selfishness took over and he never felt that way again.
Wow, just to elaborate on my last comment. Tom and Luigi were sort of twins because of thier similar past. the murder and the shadyness but is this intentional?
I disagree with Lane because I think that he did know what was right and what was wrong, and that his morals were completely in check. I just think that he either didn't think through the end result and circumstances that could come from his actions; or he just chose not to take those into consideration. It goes back to what Nathan and Jordan were saying about how one is who they are based on how they are raised. He was given everything he ever wanted, and so he was under the impression that he could do whatever he wanted and would be able to get away with it.
One of the articles I read was that Twain used Poe's stories as a target for his sattire. It compared Pudd'nhead Wilson with William wilson (from last semester) and the doppleganger. Do you think that this is an accurate comparison?
I really agree with Hannah's comment about the pardon of Tom. They didn't see his sale down the river was punnishment, but realistically, it's probably the worst thing that could have happened to him. I think it would be interesting to see how Tom would handle slavery. I personally think it would crush his spirit swiftly and efficient.
Chelsea I would agree that nurture exceeds nature but doesn't thinking you can do whatever you really want to do qualify you to having a fractured moral compass?
Brian- I don't think he would ever be able to overcome his original feeling, because he would never be able to interact with whites or blacks, and would be extremely lonily for the rest of his life.
Jimmy, I read that article too and I found it very interesting. At first, I could not see the relation to Poe at all, but the author did make his points by comparing doppelgangers. I agreed with that part of the article, but the author also called Twain a Gothic author, and that I wasn't sure if I agreed with or not. Do you think Twain could be considered a Gothic author?
At the end of the book I see Tom being sold down the river as a symbol of how inferior people thought he was. They were basically saying this slave is not worth a white man's punishment.
Kayla- The switching between good and evil of roxy and the twins could be seen as this way. Also Luigi mudered which is evil but it was to save his brother which is good. I believe that this is just making people their own twins just as Dan mentioned that David wilson and Pudd'nhead wilson were differnt people.
Kayla I agree with you. I believe people have both good and evil. However, after I thought about it, I could not think of one good thing Tom ever did throughout the whole book. Every other character I feel portrayed some aspect of good and some aspect of evil, but to me Tom was literally pure evil.
Jimmy, I read that article as well and I found it very interesting becuase from what I remember Twain openly expressed disaproval for Poe and his writing style. So to draw comparisons between their writing could have been seen as an inslut by Twain
I think that Twain could be a gothic author. I read the article that compared him to Poe and I thought it was intresting how his characters and plot lines could be seen as gothic. I don't think that he is an obvious gothic author but I do think that there are hints of gothicism in this stories.
chelseah- Twain could be considred a gothic author for the fact that he touches on subjects that are dark, slavery, murder, and dark arts (palm reading) but it is all satyrical. so yes he could be considered a gothic author but that is not the main focus of his stories.
Jimmy- I think that comparing Pudd'nhead WIlson and William Wilson is an accurate comparison. An example of dopplegangers in Pudd'nhead Wilson is Tom and Chambers. Do you think Twain was thinking about dopplegangers when he wrote the book?
I am skeptical to believe that people are good and eveil because Tom is given chance after to chance to do good, however he repeatedly returns to his evil ways. His only redeemer is his love for Rowena but I don't think it can come close to all of the scamming trickery and murder.
blairiha, I dont think that Tom specifically ever expresses any sort of guilt towards Chambers. I think this illustrates his selfishness. He dwells on his own feelings of not being worth enough, now that he realizes that he is part black. He whines and whines on how badly things are for him, now that he knows what he really is. However, he never realizes how dificult that this probably is for Chambers. He, after all, doesnt necessarily deserve the life he has been living. He technically should not even be living in slavery. I wonder what kind of relationship developed between Tom and Chambers; it is never really explored in the novel. However, I do think I remember that Tom mentioned being jealous of Chambers (?). I just find this ironic because Tom is jealous of someone who has some much less than he does--and he is jealous of Chambers before he even learns that Chambers is actually not a slave, but a white person who, according to their society, should be 'ranked' higher than Tom is.
I found that the "twins" that were most like Dopplegangers were actually not Angelo and Luigi. Maybe I didn't read far enough into them but I did not see anyhting very deep in the twins. I did not see them as Dopplegangers, but saw more doppleganger like comparisons between other characters such as Judge and Tom.
Zach, I disagree with the idea that Tom's punnishment was the town's idea of Tom being inferior of a white man's punnishment. From what I can tell, the townspeople knew very little of Tom's life; they didn't know about the depth of his crimes or the superficiality (sp?) of his character. I think that is a commentary by Twain on how unaware people are of their own situations. That ties into Megan's theory that people have a very hard time analyzing their lives from a third person perspective.
Bair, but couldn't this hatred have igited his need to sattire all of poe's stories and show how much they are rediculus and how he can write the exact same story but in a different veiw that was excatly opposite of what poe did. Their stories are twins. and I should really stop connecting everything to twins.
Kyle that is an interesting point. I agree that Tom really has no place in society. Think about it. He's really a slave, yet he lived as a white man. He is only 1/32 black, yet he is considered a slave. He cannot be trusted and treats people horribly. I don't know where he would fit in society. Now, he wont be accepted by the white community obviously because he is a slave, and I would imagine the slave community would not accept him because he lived most of his life as a white man. I dont know, just somthing I was thinking about.
I agree with you Brian, but I think that Twain used the blackmailing of Tom by Roxy to show that even in his most lowly state after finding out that he is a slave, he still has the same personality and character that forces him to be evil. Can personalities change in one instant, or are the personalities that are formed through your upbringing mind the personalities that you will carry throughout your life? Can people actually change themselves, or are the person you make yourself to be the person you are forever?
Lane - define the moral compass. One of the articles I read spoke about the way that Twain knew of a general moral code, and yet continued to rebel against it through his book.
Twain also decided that "one cannot be taught the moral code, but must learn it through experience."
Brian, I do agree with you that Tom has a great deal of evil inside him, but then I thought back to when he found our Roxy was his mother and the thoughts he had that night. His thoughts had some truth and good behind them. I believed that when I was reading the book that he was having an epiphany but later realized that he didn't take to heart anything that he thought about. So I agree that Tom is mostly evil, but in that one part I did see a glimmer of good.
Brian- I agree with your idea that Tom has no place in society. I see that as his punnishment. Because he has alianated himself from both communities, he has left himself metaphorically homeless.
Blair, in one of my articles it described the twinning in Twains work. It argued the obvious twinning in Luigi and Angelo and Tom and Chambbers, but it also suggested that there was twinning between Tom and Roxy, Roxy and Wilson, and even Wilson and Tom. It was hard for me to understand, but does anyone see any connection of twinning in those characters?
But who is to blame for Toms alienation? Is it his fault becuase of the choices he made or is it the fault of Roxy for switiching the babies. Or is it the fault of Judge for not being the father he needed to be for Tom.
Brian- I read the same article and I thought the most interesting comparison was that of Wilson with himself as Pudd'nhead the fool and as David the hero.
Bringing the inner circle out into the blog.... I believe it's human nature to need to survive and it's te upbringing that tells that person what survival is.
I would think that becuase he was a slave, he would be punished more severly then Tom was. Realize that Tom went his whole life shaking hands , etc. with white people. Those poeple now just realized that they had shook hands with a slave.
I think it's Tom's own fault for his alienation. Yes his upbringing did play a part in how his life turned out, but it was because of the choices he made.
I think the real tradegy in this story is Chambers. Does anyone else feel this way? Why did Twain bring him up again at the end of the story? Was it satirical or was it to show the dispair one person can cause?
Balir, this is the question that has been buggin me for a while. It goes back to the nature vs. nurture question, had Tom not been switched, would he still be a jerk?
Kayla, I thought about that and how he reacted to finding out he was actually a slave. But he only felt that way for a very short amount of time and that made me think that he still had no good in him. I think he felt that way not because he felt bad, but because he realized how much his life would change if this was discovered. Tom was just coasting through life, doing whatever he really wanted to. However, after he found this out, he realized how it could effect him.
Shannon, I agree with you that the real tragedy was Chambers. Does anyone have any ideas as to why Twain didn't discuss him in the story much? Why didn't he go into more depth about what happened to Chambers after being raised a slave and becoming a part of the white society again?
I dont know if there is any secure blame for the way that Tom turned out I think that any person brought up in those circumstances that would turn out the same way.
Shannon- I wish they would have talked more about Chambers and how this whole situation had an affect on him. Wouldn't he be bitter towards Tom or even Roxy. His whole had been ruined but yet Twain doesn't have him express any frustration. Does this say anthing about Twain?
Jordan I agree with you. None of the other higher class people have turned out to be such rotten apples, that we know of. So his selfish ways led to his downfall.
I agree with Jordan. Even though it was not Tom's choice to be switched, he could have made better choices throughout his life. Making better choices would have made Tom's life much better and he would nothave ahd to kill his uncle for money.
Shannon- Twain does bring up Chambers in the conclusion, but he only mentions him in a small paragraph. Also, Chambers is not a big part of the story. I think it would have been more interesting is Twain had focused on Chamber's fate more.
I agree Shannon, Twain just kind of threw him in there at the end, after leaving him out from the rest of the story. I think that Chambers represents how the slaves are just forgotten, the white people don't even know they exist, as people or otherwise.
matt, no, I think that when the book says, when tom got whatever he wanted chambers got mush. Chambers turned out ok because of this and tom turned out to be a jerk because of his upbringing
If would make sense for Chambers to have turned out the same way Tom did becuase of the ways of the society. But it is something we will never know. For all we know Tom still could have turned out to be a jerk. I think he could have becuase I don't think Roxy would have been a better parent figure the Judge was.
Yea shannon I felt that way too. I was very interested to find out what happened to Chambers. I also wish Twain would have written more about him in the middle of the book. He is in the beginning and then we never hear about him again until the very end of the story. Maybe Chambers could represent how slaves felt in the post civil war era, when they were set free.
Shannon- I agree that this story is a tragedy for Chambers because he gets jipped out of his life. When he finally gets back what he "deserves" it doesn't feel comfortable for him. I interpreted that during the story, Roxy did not treat him like her son as much as she would have to Tom. Then when he is given money and is given part of his real life back, he is treated differently than Tom was. Overall Chambers is the real sad innocent person of the story.
Chelsea- At the end of the book, Roxy was angry and upset that Judge Driscoll was murdered, even in the courttoom she mentioned her anger. Is this anger because of her good character that she is mad that such an atrocity could happen, or because her power over Tom is now extinguished?
I don't see how Roxy could have "rasied" Chambers without feeling any guilt for what she did. Yes it is a motherly instinct to want the best for you child. But she made the assumption that Chambers would have been a brat and the attention and things white people got would be wasted on him. And that Tom would deserve because he was going to be a good person.
If our upbringing shapes who we are, why do some people change? Is it possible that we are influenced by our environment throughout our lives? Could each person continue to evolve throughout their life?
matt- that may be the easiest way but probably not the best. Tom was never taught that everything is not his. He just had to say awn't it and he got it. later when he didn't have the strength or grace of Chambers and he couldn't say awn't it he reacted violently
118 comments:
first post, How many sets of twins were there? There was Luigi and Angelo, as well as Tom and Chambers. Were there other subtle sets of twins?
What was Twain's reasoning for calling the book Pudd'nhead Wilson when the book was mainly about Tom and Roxy?
i think that you can't regret anything having to do with your own child. it's like regretting giving birth...it's an impossiblity.
Why do you believe that the real Chambers acted so vile and cruel towards his mother Roxy even after he realized that his mother Roxy saved him from a potential life of slavery????
I think that there are many sets of twins, in my research I saw comparisons between Roxy and Tom, Wilson and Judge Driscoll and Pudd'nhead Wilson with himself (Pudd'nhead Wilson v. David Wilson)
JORDAN- Because Pudd'nhead Wilson was the ultimate solver of the problems of Tom and Roxy and ended up ratting them out in the end of the book "Pudd'nhead Wilson"
Jimmy- I read an article that talked about twinning for my Bibliography. I think the author talked about several different possible twins in the book. I think there were subtle clues that people were meant to be each other's twin.
To answer Jimmy's question, both the Percy and Judge Driscoll served as Tom's father figure, which was kind of a double. Tom himself also had another double when he dressed as a woman. I kind of noticed that while reading this book it was full of doubles, especially since Mark Twain was the other name for Sam Clemens.
kind of going off what Jimmy said, how did twaain portray the actual twins- angelo and luigi, compared to the two pseudo twins- tom and Chambers?
Erika-
i think it was all about the way he was raised. His whole life was shaped around the fact that slaves are sub-human, inferior and objects to be owned. One minute of finding out you could be one yourself is not enough to change a lifetime of abusing and condescending.
Erika- I think he acted this way towards his mother because she altered his life so much. I guess he was still bitter from that fact.
Meghan- I disagree. I think Roxy made a choice, and it is possible for her to regret switching the babies because of what it did to Tom and Chambers in the end.
I think that's an interesting point Dan. It does seem like Pudd'nhead is a completely seperate entity than the actual Wilson at times.
I find it interesting that Dan found research that compared Pudd'nhead Wilson to being a twin with Judge Driscoll, because at the end when Judge died, Wilson acted as if he lost a part of himself. I never really thought of Judge Driscoll and Wilson being subtle twins, just best friends, but I guess they were more attatched to each other than I realized.
Megan, I do not completely agree. I think she Roxy overestimated the perks of being a white slaveowner. She sacraficed her son's moral compass for money, and if I was a parent, I would want my child to have good character more than I would want them to be rich. I think that if she would have known what was to become of her son, she would not have made the same decision.
Another question...What was the purpose of all the little quotes at the beginning of the chapters from Pudd'nhead's calendar? How did they relate to what happened in the chapter?
Does a person's uprbringing or ethnicity ultimately determine their personality?
I think the way that Roxy's son turned out was Twain's sense of humor; kind of poking jus at roxy even though she had the best of intentions.
EMILY- But don't you think that the real Chambers would feel sympathetic towards slaves and the way that they live and the way that the kids are raised and feel like that would have been him if it hadn't been for his mother Roxy's copmpassionate move.
Perhaps I'm just a skeptic (what do I mean, perhaps?), but I think that, like most literary theory, we're reading too much into the book. Although arguably twins are an important theme throughout the book, there are few parallels one can draw between say, Driscoll and Wilson (within reason). Roxy and Tom are both concerned almost purely with power and social status, but I think they're fundamentally different enough (due to their upbringing) that they can't really be considered as "twins".
Matt-
I think he used Tom and Chambers as an example of how different twins can be while the real twins were used to show how alike twins can be.
Jordan- I think the book was named after Wilson because he seemed to be the only character that did not have any major problems.
I wanted to know what you guys thought about guilt in this book. Does Roxy feel it? Does Tom? What about the twins and Pudd'nhead?
fun not jus sorry...haha
I think that she uses her son as an asset towards herself, and she doesn't see herself as his mother. In the beginning I think that she did and really wanted to be a motherly figure but as she saw how he is growing up, she starts to fade from him.
fun not jus sorry...haha
Chelsea-
Jimmy, I think symbolically there are many other sets of twins. It was interesting, one of my annotated bibliography sources had the opinion that Pudd'nheadd Wilson had dual characters that were twins or a doppleganger in a sense. Examples of this is his isolation for 20 years in the town as well as him being prominent with the town's most respected citizens. Also with his manipulation of power with the fingerprints and friends and his good intentions for saving others, like Luigi and Angelo.
Erika- I think the way Tom was brought up made him selfish and proud. He was unable to accept his true identity, because he was so proud, which led him to lash out at Roxy.
Jordan, I was wondering that too. Why do you think that Twain was going to call the book The Tradegy of Puddn'head Wilson? What was such a tradegy inhis life? What was Twain trying to satirize with that title?
Yeah Declan, I think that the Puddinhead is the way that the townspeople see him and all his little oddities, and the Wilson is the true genius of his mehtods, and how he is ahead of his times.
ZACHF- I think that one can answer that question either way. If one's upbringing consists of slavery as opposed to a rich slaveholder then of course personalities are going to be different. What do you specifically mean ZACHF?
Zach, I definitely think that a person's upbringing ultimately determines their personality. I read this article when we were doing our annotated bibliographies about how blood doesn't make a family, sentimentalism does. I think this applies.
matt- I noticed that Angelo and Luigi were the same as tom and chambers in many ways. They were opposites in the way that Luigi murdered a man but it was to save his brother. Tom nearly murdered his "twin". Tom and Chambers seemed to be a replica of Luigi and Angelo, their actions were the same but for entirely different purposes.
I agree with Tom, maybe we are analyzing topics with the book that shouldn't be analyzed as in depth as we are. Perhaps there are other themes within the book that we aren't looking at, that do have more symbolism and meaning.
Chelsea- your comment helped me understand the irony in Puddn'head representing the twins in the trial. In reality, the friends and family of victims of crime would take the opposite stance. I think that speaks to the depth of Puddn'head Wilson's character.
Matt- Twain focused more on Luigi, rather than Angelo, who was more in the background. Also, Tom was a main character, while we don't know much about Chambers. I think this relates to the power of human impulse, and how the evil impulse can take over a person.
do you all think that personal choices really affected who Tom was?
a lot of what he has become is put on Roxy, but TOM made choices too.
the son of an axe murderer can be a good man.
...and the son of a good man can be an axe murderer.
Does Twain believe that every person has some good and some evil or does he believe that each person personifies one of the two?
Zach-I think that it does determine your personality. For example: if you have always lived in a family that has a lot of money, you never worry about the cost of things. However, if you grew up not having all the money in the world, you stretch your money as far as it can go to get the most out of what you have. Same thing with race: black people grow up somewhat differently than white people just because of cultural differences. The place where you live also has an impact on this.
i agree 100% with Tom. I think that we tend to read far too much into the small, insignificant details while ignoring the blatant symbolism. Or maybe Twain didn't mean all this "symbolism" to actually be symbolism. maybe he just wanted to write a book.
(I know that we have to read into the book in order to have a class, but really, must we go so much into the small details? I don't feel as if the Twin issue is a huge deal in the novel)
I agree with Jordan I think a person's personatlity is based on their ubringing and the people that they are surrounded by. Tom being in a wealthy lavish upbringing grew up spoiled even though he is part slave.
Do anybody think Chambers would have chosen to continue to be a slave (if he could), when he found out he was really white, because the book said he felt very out of place in white society?
Meghan...I agree with what you said but I think that a lot of the his decisions were made because he never knew what was right and what was wrong except what his somewhat defective moral compass could tell him. He had the ability and opportunity to be good but situations and decisions carried him pretty far from that.
Dan, Roxy felt guilt and Tom did not for his/her actions. They were complete opposites. Tom and Luigi felt no regret for their actions but there actions were for a different purpose and were therefore twins in their actions but opposites in their purpose. ALmost like Tome is Luigi's evil twin....
Kyle--I think that most people would agree that feeling out of place is still far preferable to enslavement.
Kyle,
He probably wouldn't have chosen to be a slave again, but he probably would've decided to spend his time with slaves, but not actually be one.
If that makes any sense.
Lane- I think that Twain does believe that all people do have good and evil, but additionally, I think he is making a commentary on the fact that sometimes humans cannot comprehend the potential consequences of their actions. I think he portrays most characters as incompetent. One of articles I read dealt with Twain's preference of competence over power. I think Puddn'head Wilson represents the only example of competence in the story.
I agree with Jordan and Nathan. Like Meghan said, a bad man's son can be a good man, and a good man's son can be bad. It all depends on their upbringing. Tom was brought up as a spoiled rich kid, and I think he subconsciously thought he could get away with anything because of that.
I think that Chambers would have had much difficulty trying to assimilate into either society. I doubt he would have chosen to go back into slavery but i also doubt he would ever fully feel comfortable in white society.
KYLE- I believe that although the real Chambers felt out-of-place, no one would choose slavery over the position of a slaveholder because the real Chambers would not have known any better. Is that what you are asking? Would the real Cahmbers switch back to a slave at an older age, or would he have rather started and lead his whole life as a slave?
I think that Twain believes that people obtain both good and evil. For example, at the beginning of the novel Roxy has nothing but good intentions of switching the babies. But as the book continues her intentions change as she becomes greedy and black mails him for his money. So I believe that characters obtain both evil and good influences inside them.
Kari!
I read that article too.
;)
Kyle, if I remember correctly, Tom felt like he was out of place in the society for honestly only a few paragraphs. Then after that it was never mentioned again. I think the initial shock made him feel this way, but then the greed and selfishness took over and he never felt that way again.
Wow, just to elaborate on my last comment. Tom and Luigi were sort of twins because of thier similar past. the murder and the shadyness but is this intentional?
I disagree with Lane because I think that he did know what was right and what was wrong, and that his morals were completely in check. I just think that he either didn't think through the end result and circumstances that could come from his actions; or he just chose not to take those into consideration. It goes back to what Nathan and Jordan were saying about how one is who they are based on how they are raised. He was given everything he ever wanted, and so he was under the impression that he could do whatever he wanted and would be able to get away with it.
One of the articles I read was that Twain used Poe's stories as a target for his sattire. It compared Pudd'nhead Wilson with William wilson (from last semester) and the doppleganger. Do you think that this is an accurate comparison?
I don't remember, does Tom ever express any guilt towards Chambers? Does he ever say that he feels bad about what Chambers had to go through.
I really agree with Hannah's comment about the pardon of Tom. They didn't see his sale down the river was punnishment, but realistically, it's probably the worst thing that could have happened to him. I think it would be interesting to see how Tom would handle slavery. I personally think it would crush his spirit swiftly and efficient.
Chelsea I would agree that nurture exceeds nature but doesn't thinking you can do whatever you really want to do qualify you to having a fractured moral compass?
Brian- I don't think he would ever be able to overcome his original feeling, because he would never be able to interact with whites or blacks, and would be extremely lonily for the rest of his life.
Jimmy, I read that article too and I found it very interesting. At first, I could not see the relation to Poe at all, but the author did make his points by comparing doppelgangers. I agreed with that part of the article, but the author also called Twain a Gothic author, and that I wasn't sure if I agreed with or not. Do you think Twain could be considered a Gothic author?
At the end of the book I see Tom being sold down the river as a symbol of how inferior people thought he was. They were basically saying this slave is not worth a white man's punishment.
Kayla- The switching between good and evil of roxy and the twins could be seen as this way. Also Luigi mudered which is evil but it was to save his brother which is good. I believe that this is just making people their own twins just as Dan mentioned that David wilson and Pudd'nhead wilson were differnt people.
Kayla I agree with you. I believe people have both good and evil. However, after I thought about it, I could not think of one good thing Tom ever did throughout the whole book. Every other character I feel portrayed some aspect of good and some aspect of evil, but to me Tom was literally pure evil.
Jimmy, I read that article as well and I found it very interesting becuase from what I remember Twain openly expressed disaproval for Poe and his writing style. So to draw comparisons between their writing could have been seen as an inslut by Twain
Lane--Who are we to argue what is a "fractured" moral compass?
You have a point Lane, but I do still think that he knew exactly what he was doing, and if it was right or wrong.
I think that Twain could be a gothic author. I read the article that compared him to Poe and I thought it was intresting how his characters and plot lines could be seen as gothic. I don't think that he is an obvious gothic author but I do think that there are hints of gothicism in this stories.
chelseah- Twain could be considred a gothic author for the fact that he touches on subjects that are dark, slavery, murder, and dark arts (palm reading) but it is all satyrical. so yes he could be considered a gothic author but that is not the main focus of his stories.
Very good point Tom. That would have to be up to the reader I suppose.
Jimmy- I think that comparing Pudd'nhead WIlson and William Wilson is an accurate comparison. An example of dopplegangers in Pudd'nhead Wilson is Tom and Chambers. Do you think Twain was thinking about dopplegangers when he wrote the book?
I am skeptical to believe that people are good and eveil because Tom is given chance after to chance to do good, however he repeatedly returns to his evil ways. His only redeemer is his love for Rowena but I don't think it can come close to all of the scamming trickery and murder.
blairiha,
I dont think that Tom specifically ever expresses any sort of guilt towards Chambers. I think this illustrates his selfishness. He dwells on his own feelings of not being worth enough, now that he realizes that he is part black. He whines and whines on how badly things are for him, now that he knows what he really is. However, he never realizes how dificult that this probably is for Chambers. He, after all, doesnt necessarily deserve the life he has been living. He technically should not even be living in slavery. I wonder what kind of relationship developed between Tom and Chambers; it is never really explored in the novel. However, I do think I remember that Tom mentioned being jealous of Chambers (?). I just find this ironic because Tom is jealous of someone who has some much less than he does--and he is jealous of Chambers before he even learns that Chambers is actually not a slave, but a white person who, according to their society, should be 'ranked' higher than Tom is.
I found that the "twins" that were most like Dopplegangers were actually not Angelo and Luigi. Maybe I didn't read far enough into them but I did not see anyhting very deep in the twins. I did not see them as Dopplegangers, but saw more doppleganger like comparisons between other characters such as Judge and Tom.
Zach, I disagree with the idea that Tom's punnishment was the town's idea of Tom being inferior of a white man's punnishment. From what I can tell, the townspeople knew very little of Tom's life; they didn't know about the depth of his crimes or the superficiality (sp?) of his character. I think that is a commentary by Twain on how unaware people are of their own situations. That ties into Megan's theory that people have a very hard time analyzing their lives from a third person perspective.
Bair, but couldn't this hatred have igited his need to sattire all of poe's stories and show how much they are rediculus and how he can write the exact same story but in a different veiw that was excatly opposite of what poe did. Their stories are twins. and I should really stop connecting everything to twins.
Jimmy, I agree, but I also think that since his writing is so satirical, it cannot be considered Gothicism, because he could be satirizing it.
Ty- I think Twain was thinking about dopplegangers when he wrote this book. Tom and Chambers display the many aspects of dopplegangers we've seen.
Kyle that is an interesting point. I agree that Tom really has no place in society. Think about it. He's really a slave, yet he lived as a white man. He is only 1/32 black, yet he is considered a slave. He cannot be trusted and treats people horribly. I don't know where he would fit in society. Now, he wont be accepted by the white community obviously because he is a slave, and I would imagine the slave community would not accept him because he lived most of his life as a white man. I dont know, just somthing I was thinking about.
I agree with you Brian, but I think that Twain used the blackmailing of Tom by Roxy to show that even in his most lowly state after finding out that he is a slave, he still has the same personality and character that forces him to be evil. Can personalities change in one instant, or are the personalities that are formed through your upbringing mind the personalities that you will carry throughout your life? Can people actually change themselves, or are the person you make yourself to be the person you are forever?
ty- based on what blair said Twain could have been trying to bring dopplegangers into the story just to stop poe's writing from being read.
Lane - define the moral compass. One of the articles I read spoke about the way that Twain knew of a general moral code, and yet continued to rebel against it through his book.
Twain also decided that "one cannot be taught the moral code, but must learn it through experience."
Brian- I think that your point is another way to show that Tom really is not a balance of good and evil. Good Work!
Brian, I do agree with you that Tom has a great deal of evil inside him, but then I thought back to when he found our Roxy was his mother and the thoughts he had that night. His thoughts had some truth and good behind them. I believed that when I was reading the book that he was having an epiphany but later realized that he didn't take to heart anything that he thought about. So I agree that Tom is mostly evil, but in that one part I did see a glimmer of good.
Brian- I agree with your idea that Tom has no place in society. I see that as his punnishment. Because he has alianated himself from both communities, he has left himself metaphorically homeless.
chelseah, it cannot be considered gothic writing but people can say that his stories have gothic themes.
Blair, in one of my articles it described the twinning in Twains work. It argued the obvious twinning in Luigi and Angelo and Tom and Chambbers, but it also suggested that there was twinning between Tom and Roxy, Roxy and Wilson, and even Wilson and Tom. It was hard for me to understand, but does anyone see any connection of twinning in those characters?
But who is to blame for Toms alienation? Is it his fault becuase of the choices he made or is it the fault of Roxy for switiching the babies. Or is it the fault of Judge for not being the father he needed to be for Tom.
Brian- I read the same article and I thought the most interesting comparison was that of Wilson with himself as Pudd'nhead the fool and as David the hero.
I think that twinning is very important in Twain's writing because for the most part it shows the contrast of good and evil.
Bringing the inner circle out into the blog.... I believe it's human nature to need to survive and it's te upbringing that tells that person what survival is.
I would think that becuase he was a slave, he would be punished more severly then Tom was. Realize that Tom went his whole life shaking hands , etc. with white people. Those poeple now just realized that they had shook hands with a slave.
I think it's Tom's own fault for his alienation. Yes his upbringing did play a part in how his life turned out, but it was because of the choices he made.
I think the real tradegy in this story is Chambers. Does anyone else feel this way? Why did Twain bring him up again at the end of the story? Was it satirical or was it to show the dispair one person can cause?
Balir, this is the question that has been buggin me for a while. It goes back to the nature vs. nurture question, had Tom not been switched, would he still be a jerk?
Kayla, I thought about that and how he reacted to finding out he was actually a slave. But he only felt that way for a very short amount of time and that made me think that he still had no good in him. I think he felt that way not because he felt bad, but because he realized how much his life would change if this was discovered. Tom was just coasting through life, doing whatever he really wanted to. However, after he found this out, he realized how it could effect him.
Shannon, I agree with you that the real tragedy was Chambers. Does anyone have any ideas as to why Twain didn't discuss him in the story much? Why didn't he go into more depth about what happened to Chambers after being raised a slave and becoming a part of the white society again?
I dont know if there is any secure blame for the way that Tom turned out I think that any person brought up in those circumstances that would turn out the same way.
Shannon- I wish they would have talked more about Chambers and how this whole situation had an affect on him. Wouldn't he be bitter towards Tom or even Roxy. His whole had been ruined but yet Twain doesn't have him express any frustration. Does this say anthing about Twain?
Shannon I had the same feeling, also I thought that it was strange Roxy's seeming neglect for Chambers, do you think that this was intentional.
Jordan I agree with you. None of the other higher class people have turned out to be such rotten apples, that we know of. So his selfish ways led to his downfall.
I agree with Jordan. Even though it was not Tom's choice to be switched, he could have made better choices throughout his life. Making better choices would have made Tom's life much better and he would nothave ahd to kill his uncle for money.
Shannon- Twain does bring up Chambers in the conclusion, but he only mentions him in a small paragraph. Also, Chambers is not a big part of the story. I think it would have been more interesting is Twain had focused on Chamber's fate more.
I agree Shannon, Twain just kind of threw him in there at the end, after leaving him out from the rest of the story. I think that Chambers represents how the slaves are just forgotten, the white people don't even know they exist, as people or otherwise.
matt, no, I think that when the book says, when tom got whatever he wanted chambers got mush. Chambers turned out ok because of this and tom turned out to be a jerk because of his upbringing
If would make sense for Chambers to have turned out the same way Tom did becuase of the ways of the society. But it is something we will never know. For all we know Tom still could have turned out to be a jerk. I think he could have becuase I don't think Roxy would have been a better parent figure the Judge was.
Yea shannon I felt that way too. I was very interested to find out what happened to Chambers. I also wish Twain would have written more about him in the middle of the book. He is in the beginning and then we never hear about him again until the very end of the story. Maybe Chambers could represent how slaves felt in the post civil war era, when they were set free.
So then, Jimmy, is the only way to raise a good child to be a jerk to them, and give the a hard life?
Shannon-
I agree that this story is a tragedy for Chambers because he gets jipped out of his life. When he finally gets back what he "deserves" it doesn't feel comfortable for him. I interpreted that during the story, Roxy did not treat him like her son as much as she would have to Tom. Then when he is given money and is given part of his real life back, he is treated differently than Tom was. Overall Chambers is the real sad innocent person of the story.
Chelsea-
At the end of the book, Roxy was angry and upset that Judge Driscoll was murdered, even in the courttoom she mentioned her anger. Is this anger because of her good character that she is mad that such an atrocity could happen, or because her power over Tom is now extinguished?
I don't see how Roxy could have "rasied" Chambers without feeling any guilt for what she did. Yes it is a motherly instinct to want the best for you child. But she made the assumption that Chambers would have been a brat and the attention and things white people got would be wasted on him. And that Tom would deserve because he was going to be a good person.
Connor- I agree with you. Although you could argue that Tom was not brought up to be a great person, he was definitely not taught to steal or murder.
If our upbringing shapes who we are, why do some people change? Is it possible that we are influenced by our environment throughout our lives? Could each person continue to evolve throughout their life?
matt- that may be the easiest way but probably not the best. Tom was never taught that everything is not his. He just had to say awn't it and he got it. later when he didn't have the strength or grace of Chambers and he couldn't say awn't it he reacted violently
Matt- In response to your last question, is that why your not a good kid?
GREAT DISCUSSION EVERYBODY SEE YA'LL TOMORROW!!!!
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