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3. Keep the discussion focused and academic. Today's topics are Social Darwinism and Mark Twain's "The Damned Human Race."
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56 comments:
I guess I'll start this off. I noticed how many assumptions he made. Do you think this is normal in sattire?
In the first paragraph of the Damned Human Race, Twain was talking about comparing the traits of the 'lower animals' to the traits of man. I connected this to The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass when slave owners tried to make slaves feel like animals rather than humans.
I thought that this kind of meant that humans try to make other humans feel this way as well to gain control and be powerful over people. This gives them a sense of superiority and makes them feel better about themselves.
Yeah, I think that in order to be satirical, the author has to make generalizations and steryotypes about society. Does this make satire less effective?
Jimmy I agree with what you saw. I also thought that he just kept attacking humans. It seemed like he wouldn’t let it down. I thought that some of the statements he made were certainly debatable about humans, but the sad part is, that I agreed and couldn’t deny some of the other things he said.
I think that for how crazy his theories were his support was actually truthful and really made me think that, although not true, it could be possible. Humans destroy all of the resources they have to expend and have no regard for anything else. I really agree with Twains philosophies.
Jimmy- I don't know if “assumptions” is the right word. I think it is more of an exaggeration, not an assumption. And satire is based almost completely off exaggeration.
I thought that one passage that showed his meaning was at the end where he talks about the curse of the Moral Sense and the ability for humans to do evil because we have intelligence.
Jimmy- I think in order to be satirical an author must make judgments about what they are satirizing.
Jimmy, yes, I think that assumptions are frequent in satire because without a bold statement, a clear satirical element is not established. The author needs to definie what he is seeing, boldy and plainly, so that his concept and opinion is not missed.
Jimmy-
The ALIS book I read last semester, The Cat's Crade was a satire written by Kurt Vonnegut. This satire was more about government and things needed to survive in culture, but it made assumptions as well. I think that this characteristic is present in all satires.
chelse- ( I just butchered your name)I was thinking of how he assumed the cat had no conscience of killing the mouse
I noticed that too Jimmy. I think it is normal to assume things in satire because we get down to the stereotype of the thing being satirized. Like in Edward Scissorhands there was the stereotype of suburbia, making the assumption that everything is somewhat similar to the exaggeration.
I agree with both Brian and Dan. I found that after I read the article, I agreed with almost everything Twain said. Do you think this proves that satire is an effective way to make a point?
Matt-
I think generalizations make satire more effective because it makes the reader think about things that don't fit into the generalization, and helps them to get the true message of the satire.
Brian and Jimmy- Why do you think that Twain was so critical of humans even when he was a part of the society that he was talking about?
Dan-- I think that is the point of satire, to try and convince the reader of the point they are trying to prove.
Hannah-- I agree with your connection, and I actually made the same one when reading. Looking back throughout history, humans have proven themselves to act more like animals, which is exactly what these authors are saying.
While I was reading The Damned Human Race I felt like I was in conflict with myself over whether or not I believed what Twain was saying. The pessimistic, rational side of me agreed with his arguments and I was able to think of specific world events that supported his ideas. On the other hand, it was hard for me to accept the Twains idea that all people are greedy and almost evil. I finally came to the conclusion that although man does indeed posess all of the characteristics Twain described, most people have characteristics like compassion and sympathy which counteract the bad. What are your thoughts?
Do you think he was attacking Darwin and his theories personally or just the human race and its faults?
Matt, I can see what you are saying about satire being less effective in this way. Because satire makes exaggerations and stereotypes, there is always room to argue the other way. He had facts based on the animal experiments, but I could argue that humans are not the only animals capable of revenge or war. I think in this way it is less effective because of this room for error.
Hannah--
Great analogy! I thought that is was interesting also that he put the 'lower' animals all togehter in that cage, things like foxes and geese, and they got along just fine. Then, when he puts 'higher' gentlemen in society together in a cage they pick each other off. I think this shows, as you said, a human need for power and to be better than those around them. Animals don't have a need for that, things are just that way. The fox hunts the goose but even they can learn to get along.
kyle-
I agree. In satire, things are more funny when they are simple. If the author has to describe things very throughly to get his point across, then I think that it becomes less funny. I can see this is Saturday Night Live with the Digital Shorts that they do (which are hilarious, if you haven't seen them, you are deprived). But they make things very simple and even though they may be stupid, somehow they manage to be funny as well.
Kind of going off what Brain said, I noticed that while he was attacking humans, he was using the most cruel and extreme examples of humanity and comparing them to the most calm and mild examples of the animal kingdom.
What he conviently neglected to mention was the large number of incredibly compassionate, charitable and kind human beings and the number of equally violent animals.
There was one question which kept occuring to me as I read. Twain consistently mentions human morals and implies that they are what puts us below the rest of the animals, however, isn't our capacity to have these morals (however corrupted they may be)proof of our place above the animals?
I think it could be argued his was attacking the use of "science" to justify even the most absurd of arguments.
Dan, I agree with you on the fact that his arguments were very well supported. I think that made his ideas seem more believeable despite the negative mood they conveyed.
I agree with Jordan, I think that satire has to use assumption and exaggerations to make his point. Twain is trying to tell us straight fact, he is trying to make a point in saying that the human race is not as great and noble as we believe. Maybe we truly aren’t superior.
Ty- I think Twain was critical of the human race even though he's apart of it because he needed to add that alien aspect of satires we talked about earlier.
I was bored during my off hour last period after reading and annotating this story and began to trace the picture. Once I started to do so I was shocked to see what it displayed. What do you think the picture adds to the story and how does it connect to the satire?
Jordan- I think it depends on what kind of satire. I also found a lot of this stuff to be true in his article. But on the other hand like with our story from the onion, the only reason it was written was to be funny.
This is more on a different subject, I thought it was interesting when Twain writes on religion in the human race. When compared with the other creatures of the world, it seems as though religion doesnt make much sense. However, when you look at the next few sections in the article, he writes on the defect of Moral Sense. I thought that this could be related to the biblical story of Adam and Eve and how had they not eaten the forbidden fruit, they would not have recieved their 'Moral Sense'. So, in this section, Twain seems to prove some human religions, more-so. I think the irony between comparing religion in humans and the lack of in other animals, and the defect of Moral Sense adds greatly to the irony of satire and how irony is a prominent technique used in satirical writing.
I hope that all makes sense.
Brian-
I agree, and I think it looses some of it's effectiveness because satire is used partially for entertainment value. However, it does seem to get the point across fairly well.
Kari, although I agree with you that almost all people have compassion and sympathy, I feel that it is human nature for people to think of themselves before they think of others. This kind of relates to the whole "the strongest survive" and in The Damned Human Race I think this was shown several times.
Ty I looked into that in my annotations. If Twain thinks that humans are so bad, then does he believe himself not to be human, or just better than everyone else. I don’t know. I consider myself a good person, but I cannot deny some of the things he said. Perhaps he felt guilty for what humans have become and was just expressing it in a satirical way.
I find that another aspect of satire is not just exaggerating the bad points, but denying and ignoring the good points whatsoever, no matter if the good outnumber the bad.
Kenna-
I definitely agree! Like in Mean Girls, they pull other people down so that they seem to pull themselves up about things. Even though they are the meanest people in the school, they are also looked up to because everyone wants to be them and possess that kind of power over everyone else at school, when really 'the plastics' are just like everyone else and are nothing special.
Sorry I meant to say Twain isn't using straight fact it is twisted truth to make a point.
Chels V.--
I found that really intersting that he put that in there. The Moral Sense is apparently what separates us from animals, and yet we abuse it by doing evil, and animals don't intentionally do wrong.
By Twain saying that this is straight fact is what makes it satirical. If we would have read this by someone unknown who used "I think this..." "This might be...." then it would have been regardeed as foolsih. It is the way he says it factual that draws people into the satire
Brian, you bring up a good point. I wonder if maybe when writing this, Twain was taking himself out of consideration. Because after reading this, I don't think either of the things you mentioned. I don't think he believed himself to be inhumane, yet he doesn't seem to be the kind of person that sees himself superior to everyone else....?
Jordan, I think satire is a great way to make a point because without a different point of veiw how can you know what your doing. To yourself what you are doing seems natural but when you get the third person perspective you start so see that you are hipocritical in a way.
Brian-
Maybe by trying to take himself out of consideration, he's just exemplified his point even more. By removing himself from the group, he kind of served as an example of man's arrogance.
Brian, your comment made me think about something. Could his commentaries on the human race also represent his view of himself. Does he feel guilty about his own character?
What makes humans different than animals in the fact that animals do not commit cruel atrocities just for pleasure? Any ideas?
Blair that is interesting you should bring that up. The picture displays optical illusions. Is the picture trying to say that humans can look two different ways? An optical illusion tricks your mind into seeing something that isn’t real. Perhaps the picture is showing how we think humans to be the most evolved, dominant specie, but when these traits about us are exposed, we really aren’t.
Chelsea V-
Emily I agree with you that yes, because we do have a conscience and morals that is what puts us above the other animals. We have intelligence, minds, and souls, rather than simply instincts. By having this it does put us above the animals and causes us to have such a greater responsibility.
Brian, That is a good thought about why he wrote this story. It also could be a kind of humor that was funny in his time, but we don't appreciate it as much now.
I firmly believe in relative morality, that good and evil depend almost entirely on situation and perspective. Twain says that "man is the Reasoning Animal", and that creates the capacity to do good. Animals only act on survival instincts, and are thus unaware of the "divide" between good and evil. Twain appears to be equating moral neutrality with goodness.
I really like what kenna said, we supposedly are superior with our moral sense but I actually believe that it is a burden, what is the advantage of moral sense if we use it for destruction.
Hannah--
Exactly! Which then makes you really look at who and what you follow on a day to day basis. I find it so interesting that Twain makes so me profound points through a twisted form of humor. Everything he says really is true, even though his examples are a bit extreme, he is right. He makes things extreme, even though they are fake, it still drives a point home somehow.
Good point Declan-
Just the fact that Twain is narrating as if he is not part of the human race, that he is above it somehow, just shows how vain and self-centered man is, despite all pretend shows of compassion.
In the picture I was confused by the man in a mask putting people in a maze as they try and escape.
I was also drawn to the men on the right being killed and stabbed by men in suits. what is this???
Jordan, Humans do not adapt to the enviroment and we do not use our own hands. We use tools and adapt the enviroment to ourselves. Animals use lots of instinct that you could call their history of behavior and humans use their own ideas.
I just wanted to say, reading this story made me feel guilty. I've never started a war or anything, but I can't deny that humans have. It almost made me feel embarressed to be one at times. Did anyone else feel that way?
With Kakos's questions I am not sure. It seems like a big thing to make fun of the Moral Sense so I don't know. What do you guys think?
I connected this book to the begining of The gods must be crazy. The narrator uses the daily scedule to show how much we are animals and organized but do not survive well. How does this connect to the story?
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