I don't know how the twins are going to incorporate into the story. I think maybe the twins will be the key for Wilson to make a discovery about the fingerprints. And when Wilson discovers whatever this is about the fingerprints, I believe he will discover that Roxy switched the children.
I remember last week when we did "Save the last line" in class, our group talked about the twins. We kind of thought that maybe one was to represent good, and the other represented evil. What do you think of them?
I think it is strange that no one knew the difference between Roxy's son and the other child when they where switched. You would think that the other mother would be able to tell which baby was her own.
One passage that sticks out in my mind that would imply that the twins were conjoined was when the widow said that she was only going to allow one person to stay at her home, but that this was an exception. Do you know which passage I am talking about? To me this implyed maybe that the twins were more like one person rather than two.
I could sort of tell that they could have been conjoined. At first I thought they were, but then I realized that they weren't, it was quite confusing! But, they kind of seem like one person to me, and they seem that they spend all their time together too. Also, I also thought that it was interesting that they were Italian, because in that time period, people who weren't from America or England were made fun of for where they were from in museums and such.
kjerstinl-I think the town's reaction to the twins revealed how rediculous society is when unfamiliar things enter their lives. The twins were paraded around, and really served the purpose of entertaining the townspeople. I don't think anyone saw the twins as people.
Sometimes it seems that people refer to twins in general as one person all the time. Like instead of using names, they just say 'the twins' or 'them' instead of calling them by name. I know several sets of twins and I know that they all hate this.
For what ever reason, I think that they are not conjoined. I would think that rather than accepting and being interested by the twins, if they were truly conjoined, I think the people would have been more in fear than in awe. But then again, in this time, freak shows seemed to be quite popular. It is just hard for me to comprehend that all the townspeople would be so accepting of these people who were so severely different, if they were in fact joined. This is what leads me to believe that they are merely two identical, but not joined, twins.
Ty makes a good point, it is strange that the babies own mother can't tell that she has another woman's baby. People always say that a woman can always identify her own child so it is interesting that this mother can't.
I definitely saw a lot of things that hinted that the twins were conjoined. For some reason when it said, "We are twenty-four years of age and twins. Our names are Luigi and Angelo Capello. You desire bu one guest; but, dear Madam, if you will allow us to pay for two, we will not incommode you." Also how the entire town was so enthralled with the twins suggested that they were conjoined.
Blair, Like Meghan said, it isn't ever really clarified whether or not they are conjoined. And I'm not sure if that has much significance to the story, I think it just shows Twain's obsession and great interest with twins in general.
Are you talking about Chambers and Tom? Because they're not twins. I did see that representation though and I think that it is ironic that the real Tom is a nice person whereas the real Chambers is a jerk and is ideal to his social status.
Hannah I have a hard time belieiving that one of the twins represents good and the other represents evil. At least from what we have read, they seem kind and friendly. I think the more important "twins" so far are the Chambers and Tom. I think while these two aren't biological twins, I believe they represent twins and the contrast between good and evil.
I think that Twain doesn't just come out and say that they are conjoined (whether they are or not) because he wants there to be a little bit of mystery surrounding them. We've talked about how maybe they're doppelgangers which we learned were very mysterious characters. Twain just wants to keep the mystery going.
declan- don't we do that too kinda. The brenens are kinda reffered to as one person. If you've ever read zits this made me think of richandamy. 2 seperate people that make one
Why do you think it is so important for people to determine whether or not the twins were conjoined in Twain's mind? Does each type of twin have a personal significance?
I think that in that time motherhood was shoved off upon a slave like it was with Roxy, she took care of everything and no one spent nearly as much time with the boys so it isn't too much of a suprise that no one noticed. However, in our time it would be very strange to not notice something like that.
I think Chelsea could be right. The twins might not have much significance at all. They might just be regular characters in the story that happen to be twins simply because Twain was obsessed with them.
Liz and Ty, I think this symbolizes how apathetic and inconsiderate the families were in this time period, or how it has changed since then. When learning and reading about this time period, I tend to get the feeling that the more wealthy, upperclass families were less involved with their children. I think this is also portrayed in this book, since the mother doesn't even recognize that its not her child.
I think Chambers and Tom are meant to be seen as the conjoined twins in the story, becasue they are the doppelgangers of themselves. If they hadn't been switched, their personalities would have been reversed. And who is Tom's real father? Could tom and Chambers actually be half brothers?
I don't think that determining if they are conjoined or not is that important in regards to the story, but at least for me, that is the most interesting part that has come up. I think Twain purposely never mentions that they are conjoined so that we would be having this very conversation today.
I think the way blacks have embraced ebonics shows that they are proud to be black and they'll take all the stereotypes that come with it and make it part of their culture.
Hannah, as I said a wee bit earlier, I do not think that the characters would have been so immediately accepting of the twins, had they been conjoined. I think, using the reaction of the townspeople towards the twins, hints that they were not conjoined because I think that if they were conjoined, at least one person would have been less accepting. It is hard to understand how the whole town could be immediately accepting of the twins, unless they were separate. If they were joined, I do not think the people would have been so open towards them. I hope that makes sense.
Shannon, You bring up a good point, and I never thought about it in that sense. If they were in fact half brothers, that would be an explanation for many of the other questions; such as why doesn't his mother notice that its not her child? I wonder if we will learn any more details of this later in the book.
Shannon I had the same question for a little while but I discovered that if they had the same mother (Roxy) then Tom would be regarded as a slave as well so it is for sure that Mrs. Driscoll is the real Tom's mother.
shannon-thats a very interesting thought, Twain never actually mentioned the boy's fathers. It would make sense, since his skin is extremeley white. That would make for a great twist ending.
I don't know if the twins are in the story to say something about society and how they would so willing accept italian "conjoined" twins but not someone who is 1/16th black.
Jimmy~ I don't think it is that significant because they havent really mentioned chambers or roxy in a while, and I wonder if they just fade from the story or play a new role
I like the inner circle question... what do you guys think about Tom and Chambers..? Personally, I think that it is the influence of being white that allows Tom to be such a jerk.
I believe Maria means Angelo and his twin (whose name I do not remember.)
I was under the impression that they were not conjoined. They stood on opposite sides of the door when they were being introduced, and in general, do not seem to be connected phycially in any way.
Erin...they probably call them strangers because they do not like anything out of the ordinary from "normal" and when they are not completely sure of them, it's easier to just call them strangers and not have to associate with them.
Answering Mrs. Leclaire's question, I think that it is the society that made Tom the jerk that he is. He has been pampered from birth, and has not learned to consider anyone but himself. Chambers has to be humble because he has spent his entire life serving others instead of himself.
I believe that it is Roxy's fault because I think she should have seen that since he is now considered white then he is going to be raised to hate the black people and use slaves and be mean to them.
I think that Tom has become a jerk as a product of the environment that he was raised it. If would have been raised as a slave he may have been a kinder, nicer person.
shauna...I think the twins will have some sort of part with the fingerprints but I'm not really sure how... they might help Wilson since neither of them really fit in in or are understood by the rest of soceity.
I agree with Alex. When you are born into a higher power than someone then you are more inclined to feel like you are more superior. Tom knows that he isn't and never will be a slave... therefore he will have complete power over someone.
I think that society is at fault for Tom being such a jerk. Tom was raised to be a jerk to people lower down than him. He really didn't have a chance; society corrupts us making our humble beginnings into a destructive ending.
there is a mix of nature in nurture in each person. so tom was already going to be a jerk. He might have been a rebellious slave, but he would have been less bitter. Chambers was always a nice guy, but it could have to do with the switch, he would have been humbled up by having to be a slave.
Ohhh, ok. Gotcha. I thought you were serious in that way...
I think they are a kind of 'twin' even if Roxy is the only one who knows it. I think thats one of the main themes of the book, that her decision might be for the worse, even though at first, it was a brilliant scheme.
I think that the society and upbringing influenced Tom's character. This relates a lot to the Stanford Prison experiment. Tom was given a position of power and abuses it.
I think that the twins were considered outsiders because they were different. If I remember correctly, they were the only real twins in the town. So to anybody else the would be freaks,or different which kind of automatically makes them outsiders.
Tana, I don't think he intended them to be twins but they do have that twin aspect to them. And they would have to be in order for the switching to pull off.
I agree with Christa. This is kind of like what Collin just said, but it's kind of like the sweet sixteen show on MTV. The kids on that show seem like spoiled brats because they get whatver they want and have been raised knowing they can get whatever they want to and feel they deserve it because they're rich. So I guess that's how Tom was raised.
I think it's Tom's fault for Tom being corrupted. I mean, he was given everything that he wanted and was spoiled, but he still has a choice on his actions to realize what he's doing is incredibly selfish.
Do you think that Roxy realized this before the switch that he would be raised like a white and grow up to dislike blacks like the rest of society? Or do you think she was too focussed on giving her son the best that she overlooked this?
Endsley- I think that Roxy believed that since Tom is really her son he might subconsciously know his heritage and be kind to Roxy. I think she was just so focused on saving "Tom" that she didn't think about the effects.
I agree with Josh in that the way that Tom is raised really affects how he acts. He is born in with certain personality, but the surrounding society definitely affects how people are raised/end up.
I definately agree with Lara. If Tom wasn't given everything he wanted, he would be nicer. By giving kids everything they want, they become selfish and demanding.
I think that if they were conjoined it would be interesting. First, as the time period proves, everyone loves talking about the freaks. The actual reason I think it would be interesting is because it would show that although they are two different people they have something in common. This would be very reflective of how even though blacks and whites have different colored skin and can have different personalities and career paths, all races have many things in common. Everyone is still a person.
Lara--nice connection! It's also like when a child whines and the parent gives in once, the kids start to learn how to manipulate the parents to always get what they want. It sounds like Tom learned that super early
Tana, I think that Roxy was just focused on saving her son and credited whites with being the way they are because of how they are born, not the way they are raised.
maria, I think it is because when you get older they might change a little bit until a certain age. Im not really sure because I dont know anything about finger prints really. All I know is if it is the same design its going to be a lot bigger by age 12 then when they were 12 months.
That is a good point Laura, so do you think that Roxy was trying to make a statement by having her half black son being raised as a white. If the whites found out that Tom is part black but he's been growing up in a white society, would it change the whites' views of the blacks?
I agree with Endsley (and others) that Roxy is largely to blame in these early chapters. Being a slave herself, how could she possibly not have seen this coming? As excited as she is to be able to raise her child in an atmosphere of privilege, I find it abhorrent that she would allow her son to truly become her master. Yet, there's a piece of me that's drawn more to Roxy than to any other character in this novel. I wonder what Twain wants us to think of her?
I think that Roxy had to think of Tom has her master rather than her son, because it would have been too painful for Roxy to have her son treat her the way he does.
Finding out that Tom was originally a slave would seriously throw a rench in the white's views of blacks. It would prove that they can be as intelligent and proper and their race.
Although, they could throw in the point that most of his blood is white after all...
Hello everyone!!! Why do you think Tom chose to go speak to Wilson in his time of trouble? Wilson is the only character shown as "A GOOD MAN" in the normal sense thusfar, because of his honor, principals, etc. Why are all these good qualities seen as making him a fool to the town?
I think Wilson is seen as a fool in the town because he possesses more wisdom than a lot of the other people who still think about his little dog comment 20+ years ago. He's not bogged down with all the Southern hickishness that appears to course through the blood of everyone else in town.
I think that in many many cases in this book, that quote is true.
However:
Luigi helps Angelo, for mostly unselfish reasons. Roxy has shown she is willing to do anything for her son without much in return. Chambers is kind to Roxy although she has shown him no affection at all. And Wilson helps Tom over and over again, without even being treated fairly by him.
Kylie- I think that quote was about empathy and wasn't necessarily supposed to be taken literally. I think people who have been in unfortunate circumstances are more willing to help people who are less fortunate.
Going along with what they are discussing: At first I felt bad for Roxy for being treated this way by her own son, but now after she takes advantage of her son like these and uses him for money I don't feel bad for her anymore. Did she not expect all along that being rasied in an affluent white society would change him?
I think that for the most part Kylie's quote is true, but on the other hand, if people are in such a state of disrepair, it is hard for them to keep their own lives together let alone help everyone else stay together.
I agree that the unfortunate always help the unfortunate. Classic tales like Robin Hood as well as others, I think Pudd'nhead Wilson shoulfd be added to the list. slaves rely on eachother as well as the white society. Roxy did try and reach out to her son, but he went back to being a jerk a few days later. People in this book help eachother out within their own socail groups.
I just heard Hannah say that she felt like Roxy was telling Tom about his past to help herself.
I think that goes along with my first question, meaning that she's unfortunate and he is in a different way, and she wants to help her unfortunate self, which is pretty selfish!
I doubt that Tom had any real affection for Roxy. His entire life he got whatever he wanted and and entirely selfish and i doubt that that realization caused a change in feelings at all
I Have a question too... I was just wondering, what do you think the quotes at the beginning of the chapter mean? They are from Puddn'head Wilson's calendar, and I'm wondering what they really have to do with the stroy, and if they are even important, or if it is just more of Twain's satire and humor.
zach-i think the passage said that the UNfortunate help the UNfortunate. And Kiley, I think that this is one of the central themes of the book, how the worse off you are, the nicer you are, and vice versa
I think the quotes that Twain use at the beginnning of every chapter are just quotes that he enjoys, and may be relevent to the story. He makes them off of Puddn'head Wilson's calander because he is educated and has a calander that would have intelligent, famous quotes.
Shannon, I was wondering that too. I've been reading the quotes before each chapter, and I can't seem to find any link or reasoning for them to be there. I guess it might just be another one of Twain's satirical examples, but I also think there is a deliberate reason for each quote to be there...
Zach, I think that the black people are helping each other in the book, but it could just be in a suttle way. Also, I think one case of the unfortunate helping the unfortunate could be Wilson and Roxy. Wilson had to have known that Roxy switched the babies by his fingerprinting chart, and yet he never said anything to anyone about it.
I agree with Kayla. It seems that the most unfortionate of all are the most willing to give, because they know what it is like to be in need. Also, Why don't the richer men, especially Tom, help out Roxy and the less fortionate without being blackmailed? Does having wealth and power corrupt your personality like Tom, or is he just a special case?
Shannon- i think that they are foreshadowing in a way, and also constantly keeping Puddinhead in the story. I get the feeling that throughtout the story, he is beginning to catch on to the switch, and the phrases at the beginning of each paragraph shows how he knows a lot more than he is lettin on.
I believe that the quotes at the beginning of the chapter are fortelling what Pudd'nhead Wilson feels about the events that are about to unfold in a metaphorical and sometimes religious way. I don't know why they really do this but I think this is why Twain incorporates this.
On Roxy, It is hard, and interesting, for me to think about the very different relationships between her and Chambers, and her and Tom. I would initially think that she would feel more connection with the son she has raised. Now, at first after the switch, I think she would have felt more connected, still, to her real son. But after all these years of receiving cruelty from her real son, and while raising 'Chambers' as her own, I would think that she would come to love the one she was raising more-so than her real son. Wouldnt she realize all these years that Tom has developed into a person whom isnt particularly kind or morally just? Why does she still care for him so very deeply even when the person he has become isnt the person she would have raised him to be? Does she feel she can change him back?
Shannon, I think the quotes at the beginning of each chapter have to do with what is going on at that point of time in the story. I can't remember which chapter it was, but the part from Pudd'nhead Wilson's calendar talked about how Adam had wanted the apple, not because he just wanted to eat an apple, but because he was told he could not have it. Later on in the chapter, it discussed how Roxy wanted a relationship with her real son, but in the end we know this isn't going to be able to happen if Tom does not want it to.
I agree with Nathan. I don't think that he feels any affectionate connection to Roxy but instead feels tied by guilt and shame. He is ashamed of who he is, so i think the only reason he is so upset is becuase he can't keep the carefree attitude out of fear someone will find out he is "black"
Thanks Fitz for pointing that out... still I think the unfortunate won't help the other unfortunate people because people are just trying to get their's.
Blair- I agree with you. In the beginning, I thought Roxy was a loving mother who wanted to save her son from slavery. But as I got to know her character more I started to disllike her. She seems selfish and manipulative. Also, I don't think she expected Tom to be a jerk based on the way that she worshiped him as a baby.
Shannon- I think having wealth does corrupt you because many people who are rich think that other people could be rich, they just don't try hard enough, so they are hesitant to help them because they didn't ask or need help.
You must remember that the reason she switched the babies in the first place was for the welfare of her own son, so it's natural that she would be more concerned about him.
If we think of everyone, like EVERYONE IN THE WORLD as being unfortunate in some way, then isn't it fair to say that everyone helps everyone out?
Like, for example: Wilson is unfortunate because he has no friends. He helps out Tom, who is losing money and fighting with his father because Tom is unfortunate.
They definitely are very different from each other. I think that there might be a doppelganger because of the extreme differences between the two. Also, Tom seems to be such a horrible child, but now he's almost possibly changing. And as that happens, Chambers dissapears.
about how spoling your kids ruins them; I agree. Also, I would like to make a connection to another piece of text...Harry Potter, where Dumbledore tells the Dursleys that even though they abused Harry, at least they didn't inflict as much damage as they did on Dudley. Yes. That's all.
Erin--Yes, me too! I think it was Tina and Maddy who said in their presentation about twins that Twain always writes them with conflicting personalities. Luigi and Angelo have very conflictiing personalities
I think that all the characters are kind of Doppelgangers. Roxy is half-white half-black... the twins are complete opposites... but physically look the same. Tom dresses like a woman. Chambers and Tom both have differnt race and different culture imbeded in him... what does Twain mean by all these doubles?
Hello, This is backtracking a little bit, but I was wondering about something. Roxy switched the babies when they were too young to remember it. The new "Tom" adopted the life of a slave master and became totally hatful of his mother. Did "Chambers," her fake son, become like her child, or just an awkward person on the side? The book talks about how her son became her master, but never about how her master becomes her son. When she comes back she never really acts that attached to her fake son. Perhaps the new "Chambers" really got the cold shoulder more than any one would have normally. The real Chambers would have at least gotten the genuine love of his mother and Tom would have gotten the better treatment because her was white. Now the new "Tom" gets his mother's love as well as the superior treatment while Chambers get neither.
I think Tom is driven to gamble because he grew up in a society where monetary status is SO important and since he is partially black, Twain purposely made him feel like his status is unstable which could possibly drive him to gamble.
Twins with conflicting personalities are more of a "freak of nature," if you will, than twins who act like one another. When twins look the same and act the same, it's to be expected . But in this sense, when they act independantly, it becomes a paradox.
Jess- I think Twain definitely uses Roxy as a satirical figure. He seems to show her as someone who thinks she's cunning more than someone who is actually clever and cunning, if that makes sense. Also he seems to be satirizing the shallowness of desiring only money and power.
Julia--I think it is because he is spoiled with a lot of money, and he CAN go out and do this, that he does. Then when he gets in trouble, his dad pays off his debt, and may disinheirit him, but Tom doesn't really understand what this means.
The way I see it, when Roxy gives up her own child so he can live a "better life", she ultimately sacrificed the right to be a mother. Now she can't be a mother to either Chambers or Tom.
Going back to what Ms. Leclaire was saying earlier about Roxy sometimes only focussing on the wealth and money, do you think that she switched the children so that Tom would eventually be able to help Roxy get money since the society and him thinks that he is white. Also do you think this is why she chose to tell him that he is truly her son and he is black?
Woah Jess I hadn't thought of it that way. I can see a lot of opposites with all the characters. I wonder if it is just his obsession with twins or doubles, or maybe he is trying to contrast people to show different sides. Maybe because this was written in times of slavery he was trying to show people all these different aspects.
Tina--I think he is using Roxy and Tom's relationship to satirize how much control mothers can have over their kids. They know everything about them, maybe more than the kid themselves, and this coupled with her wisdom of age gives her this kind of ironic power over Tom.
Laine- that's a GREAT question. I wondered about that too and then promptly forgot that I wondered about it.
I think that maybe Chambers (the real Tom) is purposefully being pushed off to the side for now, perhaps just because Twain wanted to focus on the racial comment of a "black" person being able to be a "white" person. I also get the feeling Chambers will come into the story later.
I definitly don't think that being white gives him the right to steal from other whites but I think that if he knew he was black that he wouldn't be doing this.
I kind of agree, but I thought that Roxy was seen as a true person by Twain in the beginning. But, now, he does seem to point out Roxy's flaws more that he used too.
Maybe it's saying that you start out as a whole person, a true person... and then once you commit some sort of atrocity.... you begin to become wrapped up in society and all the terrible things that influence a person.
Laine, I think that the new "Chambers" did get the cold shoulder but I think he got it even worse because he was a slave and there was another boy his age. The new "Tom" always got the attention because he came first and being a slave he also got the the shaft on attention.
I find Twain's portrayal of Roxy very interesting. I can't decide if Twain is criticizing the attitude of slaves back then, or if he is trying to show people the ridiculousness of thinking that slaves are "simple-minded." What are your thoughts on the portrayal of Roxy?
163 comments:
So, what do people think about the twins?
I am already seeing a few things that may suggest that they are conjoined did anyone else notice that?
I don't know how the twins are going to incorporate into the story. I think maybe the twins will be the key for Wilson to make a discovery about the fingerprints. And when Wilson discovers whatever this is about the fingerprints, I believe he will discover that Roxy switched the children.
I couldn't decided if they were joined or not. I noticed several quotes that implied that they were but then theyet never come out and say it.
I think so too, it seemed that people were referring to them as one person.
KJ-
I remember last week when we did "Save the last line" in class, our group talked about the twins. We kind of thought that maybe one was to represent good, and the other represented evil. What do you think of them?
I was wondering what the significance of the twins? Why are they in the story? How did Wilson all of a sudden becomes friends with them?
I think it is strange that no one knew the difference between Roxy's son and the other child when they where switched. You would think that the other mother would be able to tell which baby was her own.
Dan- it seemed wierd how everything the twins did was in pairs, it never talks about how one does something different from the othetr
I think they are conjoined but Twain doesn't make it obvious because it is his own little secret and his only little touch to the story.
One passage that sticks out in my mind that would imply that the twins were conjoined was when the widow said that she was only going to allow one person to stay at her home, but that this was an exception. Do you know which passage I am talking about? To me this implyed maybe that the twins were more like one person rather than two.
I noticed that, too. Like Nathan said, people seemed to refer to them as one person
I could sort of tell that they could have been conjoined. At first I thought they were, but then I realized that they weren't, it was quite confusing! But, they kind of seem like one person to me, and they seem that they spend all their time together too. Also, I also thought that it was interesting that they were Italian, because in that time period, people who weren't from America or England were made fun of for where they were from in museums and such.
I don't know though if whether they are conjoined or not is important to the plot of just reflects the interest of Twain.
I was looking around online, and I found that in the original story, the twins were conjoined.b
kjerstinl-I think the town's reaction to the twins revealed how rediculous society is when unfamiliar things enter their lives. The twins were paraded around, and really served the purpose of entertaining the townspeople. I don't think anyone saw the twins as people.
Was the fact that a black man went to yale significant to nott's theory of different origins?
I think the twins being conjoined could have lead to the extreme interest that the citizens of this town show.
Sometimes it seems that people refer to twins in general as one person all the time. Like instead of using names, they just say 'the twins' or 'them' instead of calling them by name. I know several sets of twins and I know that they all hate this.
I think that the twins will have something to do with sovling the crime along with Pudd'nhead Wilsons's fingerprinting.
For what ever reason, I think that they are not conjoined. I would think that rather than accepting and being interested by the twins, if they were truly conjoined, I think the people would have been more in fear than in awe. But then again, in this time, freak shows seemed to be quite popular. It is just hard for me to comprehend that all the townspeople would be so accepting of these people who were so severely different, if they were in fact joined. This is what leads me to believe that they are merely two identical, but not joined, twins.
Ty makes a good point, it is strange that the babies own mother can't tell that she has another woman's baby. People always say that a woman can always identify her own child so it is interesting that this mother can't.
I definitely saw a lot of things that hinted that the twins were conjoined. For some reason when it said, "We are twenty-four years of age and twins. Our names are Luigi and Angelo Capello. You desire bu one guest; but, dear Madam, if you will allow us to pay for two, we will not incommode you." Also how the entire town was so enthralled with the twins suggested that they were conjoined.
Blair,
Like Meghan said, it isn't ever really clarified whether or not they are conjoined. And I'm not sure if that has much significance to the story, I think it just shows Twain's obsession and great interest with twins in general.
Hannah,
Are you talking about Chambers and Tom? Because they're not twins. I did see that representation though and I think that it is ironic that the real Tom is a nice person whereas the real Chambers is a jerk and is ideal to his social status.
sorry, "BUT one guest" :]
True, Madison, it seems like a fact that would definitely be mentioned.
Hannah I have a hard time belieiving that one of the twins represents good and the other represents evil. At least from what we have read, they seem kind and friendly. I think the more important "twins" so far are the Chambers and Tom. I think while these two aren't biological twins, I believe they represent twins and the contrast between good and evil.
blair-
I think that Twain doesn't just come out and say that they are conjoined (whether they are or not) because he wants there to be a little bit of mystery surrounding them. We've talked about how maybe they're doppelgangers which we learned were very mysterious characters. Twain just wants to keep the mystery going.
I agree with Liz. I don't think the twins being conjoined is any consequence to the story, and that it was just Twain's little touch to the story.
declan- don't we do that too kinda. The brenens are kinda reffered to as one person. If you've ever read zits this made me think of richandamy. 2 seperate people that make one
Why do you think it is so important for people to determine whether or not the twins were conjoined in Twain's mind? Does each type of twin have a personal significance?
My comment was refering to the begging of the story, right when they are switched.
okay, just a question-
If the twins were conjoined, why on earth wouldn't it have been mentioned in the text?
I think that in that time motherhood was shoved off upon a slave like it was with Roxy, she took care of everything and no one spent nearly as much time with the boys so it isn't too much of a suprise that no one noticed. However, in our time it would be very strange to not notice something like that.
I think Chelsea could be right. The twins might not have much significance at all. They might just be regular characters in the story that happen to be twins simply because Twain was obsessed with them.
They way they said that they would only take up like room for one but would be glad to pay for two made me think that they were conjoined
Liz- It doesn't seem like the other mom really spends any time with her child, maybe that is why she can't tell the difference.
Liz and Ty,
I think this symbolizes how apathetic and inconsiderate the families were in this time period, or how it has changed since then. When learning and reading about this time period, I tend to get the feeling that the more wealthy, upperclass families were less involved with their children. I think this is also portrayed in this book, since the mother doesn't even recognize that its not her child.
emily-
look at my response to blair...
I think Chambers and Tom are meant to be seen as the conjoined twins in the story, becasue they are the doppelgangers of themselves. If they hadn't been switched, their personalities would have been reversed. And who is Tom's real father? Could tom and Chambers actually be half brothers?
I don't think that determining if they are conjoined or not is that important in regards to the story, but at least for me, that is the most interesting part that has come up. I think Twain purposely never mentions that they are conjoined so that we would be having this very conversation today.
Declan, It doesn't seem like there would be that much focus on a charcter(s) that are not that important.
Ty-
There is no other mom, she died.
I think the way blacks have embraced ebonics shows that they are proud to be black and they'll take all the stereotypes that come with it and make it part of their culture.
As Brian said i don't think that the twins represent good and evil in that in almost everything they do they act together and don't disagree.
Is it significant the the way Roxy was going to drown herself and then Tom almost drowned
Hannah, as I said a wee bit earlier, I do not think that the characters would have been so immediately accepting of the twins, had they been conjoined. I think, using the reaction of the townspeople towards the twins, hints that they were not conjoined because I think that if they were conjoined, at least one person would have been less accepting. It is hard to understand how the whole town could be immediately accepting of the twins, unless they were separate. If they were joined, I do not think the people would have been so open towards them. I hope that makes sense.
Jimmy-
That's true, but I didn't mean that the characters were unimportant. I meant that the fact that they were twins could be insignificant.
Shannon,
You bring up a good point, and I never thought about it in that sense. If they were in fact half brothers, that would be an explanation for many of the other questions; such as why doesn't his mother notice that its not her child? I wonder if we will learn any more details of this later in the book.
Shannon I had the same question for a little while but I discovered that if they had the same mother (Roxy) then Tom would be regarded as a slave as well so it is for sure that Mrs. Driscoll is the real Tom's mother.
declan- Oh, ya that could be true
shannon-thats a very interesting thought, Twain never actually mentioned the boy's fathers. It would make sense, since his skin is extremeley white. That would make for a great twist ending.
Madison- Do you think the town's reaction would have been the same if the brothers had not been twins?
I don't know if the twins are in the story to say something about society and how they would so willing accept italian "conjoined" twins but not someone who is 1/16th black.
I don't think that the fact that the twins are twins is a big deal, I think it is just a thing that relates to Twain as an author.
Jimmy~ I don't think it is that significant because they havent really mentioned chambers or roxy in a while, and I wonder if they just fade from the story or play a new role
6TH HOUR!!
Were Chambers and Tom conjoined or not? Where does a doppelganger fall into this
let's see how badly we can outdo them...
How can two children from separate mothers be conjoined, Maria?
surgery?
Why do the towns people keep calling the twins "strangers"?
I don't think they're conjoined just because that wouldn't work. Didn't they come from different mothers?
I think that Tom is a jerk as a product of his environment.... what do you think?
I don't think the twins are joined at all but rather the society deems them as one person because they are a freak in a so called "perfect" world.
I like the inner circle question... what do you guys think about Tom and Chambers..? Personally, I think that it is the influence of being white that allows Tom to be such a jerk.
I do think that Twain meant for Tom and Chambers to be twins and aimed for that idea but iI don not think that they were conjoined at any time
Haha thanks alex, I meant metaphorically. Didn't Kakos say that Twain originally wrote them conjoined?
I believe Maria means Angelo and his twin (whose name I do not remember.)
I was under the impression that they were not conjoined. They stood on opposite sides of the door when they were being introduced, and in general, do not seem to be connected phycially in any way.
I had the same question as fourth hour, could the finger prints and the twins be relatedd?
Erin...they probably call them strangers because they do not like anything out of the ordinary from "normal" and when they are not completely sure of them, it's easier to just call them strangers and not have to associate with them.
Answering Mrs. Leclaire's question, I think that it is the society that made Tom the jerk that he is. He has been pampered from birth, and has not learned to consider anyone but himself. Chambers has to be humble because he has spent his entire life serving others instead of himself.
I believe that it is Roxy's fault because I think she should have seen that since he is now considered white then he is going to be raised to hate the black people and use slaves and be mean to them.
I think that Tom has become a jerk as a product of the environment that he was raised it. If would have been raised as a slave he may have been a kinder, nicer person.
well even twins dont have the same fingerprints, but they happen to be very similar. It could be a way of telling the twins apart.
Jessie W... yes i thought they were from different mothers. so they aren't twins right?
shauna...I think the twins will have some sort of part with the fingerprints but I'm not really sure how... they might help Wilson since neither of them really fit in in or are understood by the rest of soceity.
I agree with Alex. When you are born into a higher power than someone then you are more inclined to feel like you are more superior. Tom knows that he isn't and never will be a slave... therefore he will have complete power over someone.
I think that society is at fault for Tom being such a jerk. Tom was raised to be a jerk to people lower down than him. He really didn't have a chance; society corrupts us making our humble beginnings into a destructive ending.
I think Wilson will find out Roxy's secret with his fingerprinting...
there is a mix of nature in nurture in each person. so tom was already going to be a jerk. He might have been a rebellious slave, but he would have been less bitter. Chambers was always a nice guy, but it could have to do with the switch, he would have been humbled up by having to be a slave.
Ohhh, ok. Gotcha. I thought you were serious in that way...
I think they are a kind of 'twin' even if Roxy is the only one who knows it. I think thats one of the main themes of the book, that her decision might be for the worse, even though at first, it was a brilliant scheme.
I think that the society and upbringing influenced Tom's character. This relates a lot to the Stanford Prison experiment. Tom was given a position of power and abuses it.
I had a question about the fingerprinting, did Wilson take new ones every year? Don't you only need to take them once?
I think that the twins were considered outsiders because they were different. If I remember correctly, they were the only real twins in the town. So to anybody else the would be freaks,or different which kind of automatically makes them outsiders.
Tana,
I don't think he intended them to be twins but they do have that twin aspect to them. And they would have to be in order for the switching to pull off.
I agree with Christa. This is kind of like what Collin just said, but it's kind of like the sweet sixteen show on MTV. The kids on that show seem like spoiled brats because they get whatver they want and have been raised knowing they can get whatever they want to and feel they deserve it because they're rich. So I guess that's how Tom was raised.
I think it's Tom's fault for Tom being corrupted. I mean, he was given everything that he wanted and was spoiled, but he still has a choice on his actions to realize what he's doing is incredibly selfish.
Do you think that Roxy realized this before the switch that he would be raised like a white and grow up to dislike blacks like the rest of society? Or do you think she was too focussed on giving her son the best that she overlooked this?
Endsley-
I think that Roxy believed that since Tom is really her son he might subconsciously know his heritage and be kind to Roxy. I think she was just so focused on saving "Tom" that she didn't think about the effects.
I agree with Josh in that the way that Tom is raised really affects how he acts. He is born in with certain personality, but the surrounding society definitely affects how people are raised/end up.
I was talking about Tom by the way, sorry
I definately agree with Lara. If Tom wasn't given everything he wanted, he would be nicer. By giving kids everything they want, they become selfish and demanding.
Maria,
ya it said in the the book that they took it evey year until they were twelve.
I think that if they were conjoined it would be interesting. First, as the time period proves, everyone loves talking about the freaks. The actual reason I think it would be interesting is because it would show that although they are two different people they have something in common. This would be very reflective of how even though blacks and whites have different colored skin and can have different personalities and career paths, all races have many things in common. Everyone is still a person.
Lara--nice connection! It's also like when a child whines and the parent gives in once, the kids start to learn how to manipulate the parents to always get what they want. It sounds like Tom learned that super early
Tana, I think that Roxy was just focused on saving her son and credited whites with being the way they are because of how they are born, not the way they are raised.
So there are now two different sets of twins in this novel. Luigi and Angelo, and Tom and Chambers.
And then we have Mr. Wilson. A surveyor from New York.
There are alot of different ways that an interesting story could crop up..
Endsleye--Why do you think that is?
maria,
I think it is because when you get older they might change a little bit until a certain age. Im not really sure because I dont know anything about finger prints really. All I know is if it is the same design its going to be a lot bigger by age 12 then when they were 12 months.
That is a good point Laura, so do you think that Roxy was trying to make a statement by having her half black son being raised as a white. If the whites found out that Tom is part black but he's been growing up in a white society, would it change the whites' views of the blacks?
Tana- I think you are exactly right. She was way too concerned with the welfare of her son to think about the possible consequences.
he is still better off, really. Hes not a slave.
But perhaps the psychological effects of having a son who hates you will bring her downfall.
I agree with Endsley (and others) that Roxy is largely to blame in these early chapters. Being a slave herself, how could she possibly not have seen this coming? As excited as she is to be able to raise her child in an atmosphere of privilege, I find it abhorrent that she would allow her son to truly become her master. Yet, there's a piece of me that's drawn more to Roxy than to any other character in this novel. I wonder what Twain wants us to think of her?
Christa,
Ya i agree with that.
It makes sense
If the whites found out about the switch, it would probably change their view of Tom and Chambers
I think that Roxy had to think of Tom has her master rather than her son, because it would have been too painful for Roxy to have her son treat her the way he does.
Finding out that Tom was originally a slave would seriously throw a rench in the white's views of blacks. It would prove that they can be as intelligent and proper and their race.
Although, they could throw in the point that most of his blood is white after all...
Hello everyone!!! Why do you think Tom chose to go speak to Wilson in his time of trouble? Wilson is the only character shown as "A GOOD MAN" in the normal sense thusfar, because of his honor, principals, etc. Why are all these good qualities seen as making him a fool to the town?
I've got a question:
"The unfortunate always help the unfortunate"
Is this actually true, or are there some examples in the story about how this really is not?
On the school copy, on page 42 I was wondering if Tom felt a maternal connection, or how does he know?
I think Wilson is seen as a fool in the town because he possesses more wisdom than a lot of the other people who still think about his little dog comment 20+ years ago. He's not bogged down with all the Southern hickishness that appears to course through the blood of everyone else in town.
Kylie- No the unfortunate don't always get help from the fortunate. For example, the unfortunate are the blacks and no one is helping them.
Meghan,
I think it may be in a form of jealousy, or maybe its just another satirical device that Twain is using.
Hey there Kylie!
I think that in many many cases in this book, that quote is true.
However:
Luigi helps Angelo, for mostly unselfish reasons.
Roxy has shown she is willing to do anything for her son without much in return.
Chambers is kind to Roxy although she has shown him no affection at all.
And Wilson helps Tom over and over again, without even being treated fairly by him.
How do these examples define their characters?
Kylie-
I think that quote was about empathy and wasn't necessarily supposed to be taken literally. I think people who have been in unfortunate circumstances are more willing to help people who are less fortunate.
Meghan, because no one is the same as Wilson, so they think that that is wierd.
Going along with what they are discussing: At first I felt bad for Roxy for being treated this way by her own son, but now after she takes advantage of her son like these and uses him for money I don't feel bad for her anymore. Did she not expect all along that being rasied in an affluent white society would change him?
I think that for the most part Kylie's quote is true, but on the other hand, if people are in such a state of disrepair, it is hard for them to keep their own lives together let alone help everyone else stay together.
I agree that the unfortunate always help the unfortunate. Classic tales like Robin Hood as well as others, I think Pudd'nhead Wilson shoulfd be added to the list. slaves rely on eachother as well as the white society. Roxy did try and reach out to her son, but he went back to being a jerk a few days later. People in this book help eachother out within their own socail groups.
I just heard Hannah say that she felt like Roxy was telling Tom about his past to help herself.
I think that goes along with my first question, meaning that she's unfortunate and he is in a different way, and she wants to help her unfortunate self, which is pretty selfish!
I doubt that Tom had any real affection for Roxy. His entire life he got whatever he wanted and and entirely selfish and i doubt that that realization caused a change in feelings at all
I Have a question too... I was just wondering, what do you think the quotes at the beginning of the chapter mean? They are from Puddn'head Wilson's calendar, and I'm wondering what they really have to do with the stroy, and if they are even important, or if it is just more of Twain's satire and humor.
zach-i think the passage said that the UNfortunate help the UNfortunate. And Kiley, I think that this is one of the central themes of the book, how the worse off you are, the nicer you are, and vice versa
Hey there!
Declan, that's a very deep observation! Everyone read Declan's post right now, it's so great! (It's about empathy, my favorite thing!)
Also: Chelsea, thanks so much for your observation on satire, that really would change how I understand Wilson ;)
I think the quotes that Twain use at the beginnning of every chapter are just quotes that he enjoys, and may be relevent to the story. He makes them off of Puddn'head Wilson's calander because he is educated and has a calander that would have intelligent, famous quotes.
Shannon,
I was wondering that too. I've been reading the quotes before each chapter, and I can't seem to find any link or reasoning for them to be there. I guess it might just be another one of Twain's satirical examples, but I also think there is a deliberate reason for each quote to be there...
Zach, I think that the black people are helping each other in the book, but it could just be in a suttle way. Also, I think one case of the unfortunate helping the unfortunate could be Wilson and Roxy. Wilson had to have known that Roxy switched the babies by his fingerprinting chart, and yet he never said anything to anyone about it.
I agree with Kayla. It seems that the most unfortionate of all are the most willing to give, because they know what it is like to be in need. Also, Why don't the richer men, especially Tom, help out Roxy and the less fortionate without being blackmailed? Does having wealth and power corrupt your personality like Tom, or is he just a special case?
Shannon- i think that they are foreshadowing in a way, and also constantly keeping Puddinhead in the story. I get the feeling that throughtout the story, he is beginning to catch on to the switch, and the phrases at the beginning of each paragraph shows how he knows a lot more than he is lettin on.
I believe that the quotes at the beginning of the chapter are fortelling what Pudd'nhead Wilson feels about the events that are about to unfold in a metaphorical and sometimes religious way. I don't know why they really do this but I think this is why Twain incorporates this.
On Roxy,
It is hard, and interesting, for me to think about the very different relationships between her and Chambers, and her and Tom. I would initially think that she would feel more connection with the son she has raised. Now, at first after the switch, I think she would have felt more connected, still, to her real son. But after all these years of receiving cruelty from her real son, and while raising 'Chambers' as her own, I would think that she would come to love the one she was raising more-so than her real son. Wouldnt she realize all these years that Tom has developed into a person whom isnt particularly kind or morally just? Why does she still care for him so very deeply even when the person he has become isnt the person she would have raised him to be? Does she feel she can change him back?
Shannon,
I think the quotes at the beginning of each chapter have to do with what is going on at that point of time in the story. I can't remember which chapter it was, but the part from Pudd'nhead Wilson's calendar talked about how Adam had wanted the apple, not because he just wanted to eat an apple, but because he was told he could not have it. Later on in the chapter, it discussed how Roxy wanted a relationship with her real son, but in the end we know this isn't going to be able to happen if Tom does not want it to.
I agree with Nathan. I don't think that he feels any affectionate connection to Roxy but instead feels tied by guilt and shame. He is ashamed of who he is, so i think the only reason he is so upset is becuase he can't keep the carefree attitude out of fear someone will find out he is "black"
Thanks Fitz for pointing that out... still I think the unfortunate won't help the other unfortunate people because people are just trying to get their's.
Blair- I agree with you. In the beginning, I thought Roxy was a loving mother who wanted to save her son from slavery. But as I got to know her character more I started to disllike her. She seems selfish and manipulative. Also, I don't think she expected Tom to be a jerk based on the way that she worshiped him as a baby.
Shannon-
I think having wealth does corrupt you because many people who are rich think that other people could be rich, they just don't try hard enough, so they are hesitant to help them because they didn't ask or need help.
You must remember that the reason she switched the babies in the first place was for the welfare of her own son, so it's natural that she would be more concerned about him.
Kylie!
New idea!
If we think of everyone, like EVERYONE IN THE WORLD as being unfortunate in some way, then isn't it fair to say that everyone helps everyone out?
Like, for example: Wilson is unfortunate because he has no friends. He helps out Tom, who is losing money and fighting with his father because Tom is unfortunate.
Great discusion everyone! See ya'll tomorrow!!!!
I think I am starting to see differences between the twins... Anyone else? Does it look like a doppelganger
What do you think drives Tom to steal and gamble? What does this reveal about the society?
Do you guys think that Mark Twain likes Roxy, or does he use Roxy as a satirical figure?
They definitely are very different from each other. I think that there might be a doppelganger because of the extreme differences between the two. Also, Tom seems to be such a horrible child, but now he's almost possibly changing. And as that happens, Chambers dissapears.
about how spoling your kids ruins them; I agree. Also, I would like to make a connection to another piece of text...Harry Potter, where Dumbledore tells the Dursleys that even though they abused Harry, at least they didn't inflict as much damage as they did on Dudley. Yes. That's all.
Erin--Yes, me too! I think it was Tina and Maddy who said in their presentation about twins that Twain always writes them with conflicting personalities. Luigi and Angelo have very conflictiing personalities
I kind of think that Tom thinks that it is okay to steal and gamble because he thinks he is white and has rights that others don't have.
Erin--
I think that all the characters are kind of Doppelgangers. Roxy is half-white half-black... the twins are complete opposites... but physically look the same. Tom dresses like a woman. Chambers and Tom both have differnt race and different culture imbeded in him... what does Twain mean by all these doubles?
Hello,
This is backtracking a little bit, but I was wondering about something. Roxy switched the babies when they were too young to remember it. The new "Tom" adopted the life of a slave master and became totally hatful of his mother. Did "Chambers," her fake son, become like her child, or just an awkward person on the side? The book talks about how her son became her master, but never about how her master becomes her son. When she comes back she never really acts that attached to her fake son. Perhaps the new "Chambers" really got the cold shoulder more than any one would have normally. The real Chambers would have at least gotten the genuine love of his mother and Tom would have gotten the better treatment because her was white. Now the new "Tom" gets his mother's love as well as the superior treatment while Chambers get neither.
I think Tom is driven to gamble because he grew up in a society where monetary status is SO important and since he is partially black, Twain purposely made him feel like his status is unstable which could possibly drive him to gamble.
Twins with conflicting personalities are more of a "freak of nature," if you will, than twins who act like one another. When twins look the same and act the same, it's to be expected . But in this sense, when they act independantly, it becomes a paradox.
Jess- I think Twain definitely uses Roxy as a satirical figure. He seems to show her as someone who thinks she's cunning more than someone who is actually clever and cunning, if that makes sense. Also he seems to be satirizing the shallowness of desiring only money and power.
Julia--I think it is because he is spoiled with a lot of money, and he CAN go out and do this, that he does. Then when he gets in trouble, his dad pays off his debt, and may disinheirit him, but Tom doesn't really understand what this means.
Tana, even though he is white that gives him the right to steal from other whites?
Laine--
The way I see it, when Roxy gives up her own child so he can live a "better life", she ultimately sacrificed the right to be a mother. Now she can't be a mother to either Chambers or Tom.
Going back to what Ms. Leclaire was saying earlier about Roxy sometimes only focussing on the wealth and money, do you think that she switched the children so that Tom would eventually be able to help Roxy get money since the society and him thinks that he is white. Also do you think this is why she chose to tell him that he is truly her son and he is black?
Woah Jess I hadn't thought of it that way. I can see a lot of opposites with all the characters. I wonder if it is just his obsession with twins or doubles, or maybe he is trying to contrast people to show different sides. Maybe because this was written in times of slavery he was trying to show people all these different aspects.
Tina--I think he is using Roxy and Tom's relationship to satirize how much control mothers can have over their kids. They know everything about them, maybe more than the kid themselves, and this coupled with her wisdom of age gives her this kind of ironic power over Tom.
Laine- that's a GREAT question. I wondered about that too and then promptly forgot that I wondered about it.
I think that maybe Chambers (the real Tom) is purposefully being pushed off to the side for now, perhaps just because Twain wanted to focus on the racial comment of a "black" person being able to be a "white" person. I also get the feeling Chambers will come into the story later.
I definitly don't think that being white gives him the right to steal from other whites but I think that if he knew he was black that he wouldn't be doing this.
Tina-
I kind of agree, but I thought that Roxy was seen as a true person by Twain in the beginning. But, now, he does seem to point out Roxy's flaws more that he used too.
Maybe it's saying that you start out as a whole person, a true person... and then once you commit some sort of atrocity.... you begin to become wrapped up in society and all the terrible things that influence a person.
Laine,
I think that the new "Chambers" did get the cold shoulder but I think he got it even worse because he was a slave and there was another boy his age. The new "Tom" always got the attention because he came first and being a slave he also got the the shaft on attention.
I find Twain's portrayal of Roxy very interesting. I can't decide if Twain is criticizing the attitude of slaves back then, or if he is trying to show people the ridiculousness of thinking that slaves are "simple-minded." What are your thoughts on the portrayal of Roxy?
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